Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening wherever you are in the world. It’s Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman with Relationship Matters TV. I hope everyone is having a beautifully blessed morning, afternoon, or evening.

You know, I always start on my soapbox and I’m not changing yet. What is my soapbox about? You know what it’s about—it’s about COVID. Today I heard that COVID is something we are just going to have to live with. I guess it’s just like the flu; maybe every year we are going to have to get a booster to keep from getting it. If you do get it, it won’t be so severe. However, what they do say is to wear your mask when you’re in a closed setting.

I understand when you’re in a restaurant, of course, you can’t eat with your mask on, although I did see a mask that had a hole or something like that, but it kind of looked a little weird. Anyway, people, I guess I’m just going to have to come off of my soapbox and just not get on again because we’re going to be living with COVID for the rest of our lives. But you really don’t want to get it, so wear your mask.

Now, of course, there’s the monkeypox. You can’t wear your mask as far as monkeypox is concerned, but everyone out there just be vigilant, be careful, and do whatever it takes to keep from getting either one of these.

Now I shall step down off of my soapbox and talk about this remarkable young lady that is my guest today. I met her on a cruise, and we just clicked. She’s just a beautiful, beautiful person, and of course, she has a beautiful first name. We’ll talk about her first name later.

Let me tell you a little bit about who I am bringing on today. Her name is Janice— isn’t that a beautiful name? Mrs. Janice Williams. She is a clinical social worker, and I’m going to ask her to explain to me and to you what all of these initials are behind her name: M.S.S.A.L.I.S.W.-S. She’s going to explain to us what that means.

Anyway, she’s been practicing in the field of social work for over 45 years, and she doesn’t look a day over 45. I don’t know when she started; she must have been five or something. Presently, she is in private practice, providing clinical services to nursing homes, various mental health and substance abuse programs. She’s been a child welfare trainer for 25 years, lending her expertise to foster caregivers, adoptive parents, child welfare staff, and kids. She’s everything, and she’s going to tell you a little bit more about what she does.

So without further ado, I’m going to bring on to you this lovely woman with this lovely name.

Janice Williams
Hello! I am doing great. What I want you to do is move over just a little bit too. Yeah, we want to see the whole of you.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Thank you! Now, you had all these initials behind your name, so tell us what all of that means.

Janice Williams
Okay, first of all, let me just say what an honor it is, Dr. Fortman, to be on your show. I’ve been excited ever since we inked this deal. So basically, I am a clinical social worker. I have a master’s in social science administration, hence the M.S.S.A. The L.I.S.W. means you are licensed by the state of Ohio to practice, and it indicates that you are an independent clinician. You need no supervision; you can hang your shingle anywhere, you can do private practice. It’s the highest level that social workers attain—not to be confused with the Ph.D. as you have, which is research. But for clinicians, for practicing clinicians, the L.I.S.W. is the top tier. The dash S just means I can supervise folks and help more people get jobs and do what I do.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Oh, that’s great! That’s really great. So I know you’ve been doing this for 45 years, and I know you only maybe 42. But what did you do before you became a clinical social worker?

Janice Williams
This is the only career that I have had. This has been my lifelong career from completing college in 1976. There are so many areas and so many ways that you can help others. That’s why people say social work sounds boring. I’ll contrer; you can work with criminal justice, you can work with mental health, you can work with the aging, you can work with substance abuse. You can work with people in just about any capacity where the human spirit needs healing and direction. So this has been my lifelong career, and I’m still in it. I’m still loving it.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
So tell me about the first time you felt that this was for you.

Janice Williams
Okay, that’s really easy. Anyone who knows me knows that I am a talker and a singer. I love to talk, and as a child, that was not always a good thing. I got my behind warmed many times for talking in class. I love people. Just you and I met on a Soul Train cruise, so I’ve always had the type of personality where I meet people, I engage with people, and I’m very empathetic. For whatever reason, people tell me their problems; they open up to me. I’ve had dentists tell me their life story, and they have me in a gag, and I can’t say anything—things they shouldn’t tell me. It was always a personality trait I didn’t know for sure as a young person, but I knew I wanted to help others. I know I had the gift of gab, and I think it was divine intervention that led me to this career, and I’ve never looked back.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Alrighty, alrighty. So now also, you were an adjunct professor. For my audience who don’t know about that, can you explain?

Janice Williams
Okay, so adjunct professors are instructors at universities who are hired because of their expertise in a particular field. If you think about academia, there are individuals who have a lot of theoretical knowledge, as we call them book smarts, but universities recognize the need for individuals who have both. They look for experienced clinicians—people who can relate, who can teach students not just the theoretical but the practical. I started as an adjunct professor in the early ’90s and finally stopped about 2006 with Case Western Reserve, and then I did two years at Cleveland State. So you’re a professor, but you have a lot of practical experience, and you share those anecdotal experiences with your students. You inspire them, and you can tell them what it’s really like beyond what the textbook says.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Oh, okay. And you also work with foster caregivers. Now, is a foster caregiver different from a foster parent?

Janice Williams
You know how nomenclature changes by the decade? I started in the ’70s; they were foster parents, but now they are foster caregivers because the role has been expanded. But Dr. Fortman, can I tell you how I started with that journey? Because it’s pretty interesting.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Yes, please do!

Janice Williams
So I was in graduate school in 1974, and as you might imagine, being a Black woman, there were very few Black women and Black men at Case Western Reserve University at that time. I found myself being in most of my classes the only Black person, which never bothered me because I’ve always had this sense of who I am and what I’m here for. I wasn’t the least bit intimidated. In one of my classes in 1974, a professor made a statement in a child welfare class. He indicated that little Black boys, if they were not adopted by the age of six, were destined to age out of the foster care system because no one wanted to adopt little Black boys. That got to me. My mother used to say certain things would burn her craw. I don’t know where my craw is, but it burned it. I was furious; that made no sense to me.

I very nicely challenged and asked him what the documentation was to back that up, and the only thing he could tell me was that’s what the data shows. The data shows that little Black boys remain in limbo; most of them are not placed for adoption, and most of them age out. I did not accept that then, and I don’t accept it now. However, because he made that statement, that put a burning flame in me to do something about it.

I began to talk to others, which is something I always do. I found people who agreed with me that there has to be another reason, but it cannot be because little Black boys are not adoptable. I have a younger brother; he was the apple of my eye. That was just not going to fly. So I convinced two people who were about 20 years my senior in the field of social work that we needed a Black adoption agency. We needed to prove them wrong. They were visionaries; they believed in me.

In 1976, I got my master’s, I went to work in my field of clinical social work, but I kept working on my dream. Two years later, we opened the doors to Harambee Services to Black families, the first African-American adoption agency in Cleveland. We were very successful because we used recruitment as the tool. The flaw in their premise was that little Black boys weren’t adopted. The reality was it wasn’t that they weren’t adoptable, but the community did not know.

The community didn’t know these children were waiting; the community didn’t know all the resources. So we went out of our way to do very creative things, like put flyers of cute little Black boys—big head, skinny butt, two glasses, all kinds of shapes, sizes, colors—we put them on flyers in grocery bags in grocery stores. We went to churches on Sunday and showed little carousels of waiting Black children. We put them on TV; we had a show called “A Child’s Waiting.” Before long, Dr. Fortman, our phones were jumping off the hook. People wanted to know how to become a foster parent, can I adopt? We let them know that there were monies out there. We let them know you didn’t have to be married; you didn’t have to be wealthy; you didn’t have to have a big house; you could be a renter.

We were very successful to the point that we were soon placing Black girls, white boys, white girls, handicapped children—all the children who had been deemed unadoptable. We were able to show that it’s about recruitment; it’s about informing the community; it’s about letting people know what resources are available. So I did that for about two years, and once we took off and we were successful, I turned my attentions to other areas, and Harambee did last for about 25 years.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Wow, that is wonderful! That is awesome what you were doing. So is there— I know you said that that was 25 years—do they still have an adoption agency focus?

Janice Williams
You know, I am actually not certain, Dr. Fortman, if there are other Black adoption agencies, but I do know since I still work in child welfare that a lot of the premises that we set, a lot of the precedents that we set, because I do training. More and more agencies are incorporating. I actually write workshops; I’ve written over 40 workshops where I train. I do this now; I go to various counties and I train professionals, adoptive parents, foster parents on how to work with children who’ve been abused and neglected. What are the special needs of minorities? What are the special needs of all children who’ve been traumatized?

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
And you had asked earlier about the distinction. So a foster caregiver, formerly called a foster parent, is one who is charged with the temporary care of children who hopefully will be reunited with their parents once the presenting issues have been resolved. Those issues could be abuse, neglect, substance abuse, a myriad of things. But the overarching goal is that the foster caregiver not only provides for that child but becomes a role model for that parent. Because what good is it to send them back to their parents if nothing has changed?

There’s still a lot of work to do in that area, so I train foster caregivers on how to understand their role, how to handle the unique behavioral and emotional problems. I train staff as to how to work with the birth families. There’s a lot of work to be done, and I do that several times a month, and I travel doing that.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Oh my goodness! Maxine says you are a blessing to our community.

Janice Williams
What a nice thing to say! Thank you so much!

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
But you really are! I mean, you really are. It’s just so wonderful, and I can see the passion that you have for it and the heart that you have for it. That’s amazing.

So now you work with foster caregivers, and you also work with adoptive parents?

Janice Williams
Yes, they typically take the classes together, and I just recently trained staff. Everybody needs to be involved, especially with the unique needs of African-American children. We can’t treat children as if all of their experiences are the same; they are not. We need to recognize their unique needs, celebrate culture, celebrate diversity, and fight against racism. I also teach anti-racism; that’s very important to me. That’s very different from diversity and inclusion; it’s anti-racism. I also taught that at Case Western Reserve for many years.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
So you touched on something that I just want to explore a little bit, and you said the unique needs of African-American children. What do you mean by that? Why do you say that there are unique needs for African-American children, especially as far as being a foster child and an adopted child?

Janice Williams
Okay, well, let’s start with the fact that that information I received back in the ’70s about African-American children languishing in foster care until they age out—if they’re not adopted—sadly, we haven’t made much of a dent in that statistic. Certainly, it’s not as grim as when they first presented it because now we’re aware. But if you think about it, as an African-American child, you have this stigma of racism that follows us wherever we go.

The other factor is that African-American children are disproportionately over-represented in the child welfare system, and that again is directly related to institutional racism. Everything is related to institutional racism. So if you already start out with that target on your back, and then you have the unfortunate situation of having family issues where your family is either unable to care for you, where there may be substance abuse, there may be mental health needs, there may be serious financial needs—all of those culminate into a real understanding of the struggles for African-American people and our children.

One cannot be colorblind and be effective in working with children if you don’t understand their struggles, the struggles of their parents, what things they have to overcome, what things they need. So it’s not just nice; it is mandatory that anybody in child welfare understand institutional racism because they can have implicit bias themselves and not even be aware.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Oh my goodness, Janice! You know, I mean, you’re getting these accolades from Dancing Down. She says it’s fantastic work that Janice has the heart for caring for people in the community. That’s just so—so how do you—you’re in private practice. Do you have—now I know you work with different organizations and institutions, but do you also work with individuals, families, you know, like mothers, daughters, fathers, sons, families? So you do that also?

Janice Williams
All of the above, Dr. Fortman, all of the above. So I have a private practice, and in my private practice, there are males, there are females, there are married couples, there are couples contemplating marriage, there are seniors such as myself. I have a very diverse population. My clients are Black, my clients are white, my clients are Asian, my clients are young—oh, I have everybody but the family dog!

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
[Laughter] Let me ask you this: in your private practice with, I would say, senior citizens, yes? What is that about?

Janice Williams
Actually, most of my work with senior citizens—I have a few now, but the bulk of my 45 years, I was a clinician in nursing homes. I would actually go into nursing homes and work with populations. There’s a lot of depression among our elders. There’s a lot of depression among people who are in nursing homes. Unfortunately, today, and I’ve seen it change over decades, everybody in a nursing home is not old. There are young people with kidney dysfunction; there are people with just every malady you can think of who are unable to care for themselves.

So depression is high. I also work with the Alzheimer’s population, with dementia. When I have clients with dementia and Alzheimer’s, if they’re not cognitively able to speak to their depression, I work on giving them life and hope. So I use spirituality a lot. I stopped working in nursing homes at COVID because we could no longer go in. But when I would go in with my Alzheimer’s and dementia patients, I would start singing groups. Janice, I don’t know if you remember from the cruise, but I like to sing, and I find that music is universal.

So I would go in a nursing home, wheel out folks in wheelchairs, and we’d start singing “Lean on Me” and “Amen” and Frank Sinatra. Music is a great equalizer; it’s a great mood lifter. So with those who couldn’t cognitively work on their depression, I would work on enlightening their spirits, hearing their stories, looking at their family pictures, hearing the same stories over and over again, and acting as if I’d heard them for the first time—just engaging and letting them know how valuable and how important they were. I miss my seniors, so that’s kind of what nursing home work looks like.

And with married couples, oh yes, marriage counseling before the counseling, before they get married to see if they want to.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Have you ever told a couple that you all really are not ready?

Janice Williams
Yes, okay. Yes, here’s what I do: I try not to be quite that blunt, but my goal is to always help you see what I see. There really have been times—I mean, this is the real world—where there’s so much toxicity that we can’t resolve that in sessions. Many times I’ll see that one person needs more help. Marriage counseling, contrary to popular belief, is not the format when you have someone with a serious mental illness.

Marriage counseling is for people who are reasonably healthy, who have the capacity to work through their problems. So if I’m in a situation where it’s clear that one person needs far more and their issues cannot be resolved as a couple, I will suggest, especially if there are safety issues, especially if there’s violence. There have been times when I’ve had to cut off my camera because if things get agitated or whatever, all kinds of situations exist. If you’re fighting and I can’t redirect you, then we have to cease this. I’m not going to watch this for what is it, WWF? A knockdown drag-out fight? That’s not my purpose.

So there are times when people have to go to their corners or rethink their relationships.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay, now one thing that I really want to talk about—when we come back, I have to make a quick commercial—but one thing you told me when we met on the cruise, and it just kind of blew my mind when we started talking about mothers and when you were telling me about your different clients and we started talking about mothers who choose their men over their daughters and the negative impact that it had on the daughters’ lives—all kinds of negative things.

And I thought at the time when you were telling me that this is well, it’s very seldom discussed, number one, but number two, I just really didn’t think it was that prevalent. And you were telling me how prevalent it was. So when we return, Janice—I love to say that name!—me too! But when we return, Janice, that’s what I really want to talk about.

Janice Williams
Okay, alright!

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
So we’ll be right back right after this.

[Music]

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Hi, we are back, and both of those books—my book, “The Secrets to How Not to Throw Mama from the Train”—wait, wrong hand—right there! And the book—how can I forget the name of the next two books? Rainbow! Well, anyway, both of those books are available on Amazon.com, and that’s the other sponsor of my show, so I will do another shout-out for her a little bit later.

But I am so excited and just so—not excited, I guess I could say interested—in what Janice is going to talk about next. So let me bring Janice back on. Am I sitting right now?

Janice Williams
Yeah, uh-huh.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay, that’s better. Now we can see your beautiful face.

So now, this to me was very serious, and I would read about this or maybe see something about this on TV, but I just thought, you know, this is every now and then. But tell me, number one, how prevalent this is, but how you found out that this was something that is prevalent.

Janice Williams
I would say very sadly, Dr. Fortman, from the beginnings in mental health—and that would have been post-1976 as a clinical social worker dealing with families, dealing with parents who have lost their children, dealing with children and young adults who talk to me about suicidal struggles and ideations—this has been going on for a very long time.

So I’ve always seen it. I’ve seen it in clinical practice; I’ve seen it with substance abuse. But probably where it became most glaringly apparent, I retired from Cleveland schools after 17 years. I didn’t want to retire; we were laid off, so there was no other option. And I need to just throw in, unfortunately, due to that decision, Cleveland had the horrible distinction of being number one in suicide—not Chicago, where you’re from, not New York City, not California—Cleveland was number one in child suicides from at least 2015. I’m not sure where we are now; we’re probably still in the top five. But they laid off social workers in 2014, and it was probably the worst thing they ever could have done.

But I remember vividly in working with children in Cleveland public schools how many times, especially with teenagers, there’s one particular incident that is forever cemented in my mind. It was a Friday evening, and if you know just about anything, everything goes wrong on a Friday evening, particularly in schools. Friday is before the weekend; everybody wants to go home. The teachers want to go home. By the end of the day, the buildings are usually deserted unless you’re a school social worker or a very hard-working teacher—and there are many.

I remember a young lady that I’ve been talking to since after lunch, and she was having problems with her mom. I offered to call her mom, as I usually would do, and try to work out their issues. She said to me, “My mom says that I’m interfering with her relationship with her boyfriend, and this is the best man she’s ever had. He has a job, and she’s not going to allow me to ruin that relationship, and she doesn’t want me to come home.”

I remember this young lady was on the swim team; I want to say she was about 15 years old. I said to her, “Well, can you go to a grandmother’s house? Let me have a chance to talk to your mother.” I’m still not wanting to just accept and face a value that this mother was rejecting her child. I’m still wanting to believe that there’s another side to this and when I talk to the mom, we can work things out.

She says, “No, my grandmother’s an alcoholic. No, there’s no one.” I called her mother, and her mother affirmed everything she had said to me. She said, “You don’t know how hard it is for me to get a man. You don’t know what I’ve been through. You don’t know how my daughter runs everybody away.” She said she was in her 30s; she deserved a life, and she said, “Isn’t there some place that you can take her?”

I said, “If you do that, ma’am, you are abandoning your child.” I said, “Oh, there’s some place I can take her, but you’re going to be charged with abandonment. You have to consent to some kind of treatment, some kind of help. Can you think of some place she can go until you calm down and she calms down?”

She said, “She can’t come here. Her man told her that he didn’t want to see her.” This is a Friday, and if my memory serves me, this has been quite a while ago. There was a teacher in the building; we called 696 kids—that’s our local Department of Children and Family Services. They gave this teacher permission to take this child because otherwise, she knew the teacher; they had a good relationship. Who knows where she would have ended up that night? But her mother told me, “No, she cannot come home. She can’t run this man away.”

So this was one instance, but there were many, many others with different variants. That was that particular variant. Many other times, we would find that there would be other issues. There might be children who are neglected, children who no one can get in touch with a parent because the parent has actually moved out. I had a lot of situations where young teens were living by themselves because mom went to live with the boyfriend. Mom would make sure sometimes some mothers would make sure there was food, etc. Some didn’t. But what they had in common was that the priority was that man instead of that child.

But please don’t misunderstand this; I am not saying that this was the norm. I’m saying this absolutely was not the norm, but I saw it more times than I wanted to.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Wow! So now, is this something that happens in diverse populations?

Janice Williams
Yes, yes. I really want your viewing audience to know that we’ve been lied to. Sexual abuse, physical abuse, neglect cuts across all socioeconomic strata. I have had the fortune of working in higher echelon communities, and I can tell you this: in some instances, I think those children are worse off because there was a period in my career where I supervised other school social workers in some of our higher-income communities.

People who are from Cleveland will know if I mention Westlake, Hudson, just a few. What I found was that those communities with low minority populations and high incomes did not want school social workers. Once again, I had to fight because I am a mandated reporter, and they would say things to me like, “Oh, we can’t call the Department of Children and Family Services on that family. Do you know who that father is? Oh, she’s on our board. Oh, that’s the head of…” I don’t care! I am a mandated reporter!

So guess what? That little experiment of having social workers in the high echelon communities died out quickly. So by no means is this only a problem of minorities; this is only a problem of the poor. This cuts across all cultures, income, socioeconomic levels, and it’s probably worse because they are protected by lawyers and money and titles.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
So why isn’t this— you know, I went online, Googled, and I tried to find some statistics about this, you know, because it’s a lot about sexual abuse, but there are no statistics about mothers who choose their husbands or boyfriends, whatever, over their daughters as far as when you talk about, you know, sexual abuse or mental abuse or mental health issues, substance abuse. You know, why do you think that is?

Janice Williams
Well, again, everything in my opinion goes back to institutional racism. When you are not valued as a people, as I was listening to you, you know what my thought was? Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman is going to write a book about this, and I’ll help her. We can co-write this book!

So first of all, why don’t we hear about it? We have to be valued. I find that people are willing to tell their stories. One of the agencies that I’m a consultant for presently is a wonderful program called People, Places, and Dreams, and this agency services clients who are recovering. They’re recovering from various addictions; they may have dual diagnoses of mental health.

So much is revealed. I have a saying that everybody with a mental illness does not have a substance abuse problem, but everyone with a substance abuse problem does have a mental illness. What you find when you hear the stories, as people explain to you how their life took a turn with drugs and alcohol and abuse, you will find a lot of common denominators of abuse and neglect. And that’s where you hear these stories over and over again.

And again, that’s not to say that everyone does it, but that’s to say that it happens far more often than the average person would know because it’s a shameful topic. This is not something—I had a client reveal to me yesterday that his father tried to solicit him sexually, and he’s a grown man, professional. He’s carried this inside for years, and he just revealed this to me yesterday, and he’s now wondering if this has something to do with why he has difficult relationships with people. And of course, it does.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
So how do you build relationships with your clients? You know, how—

Janice Williams
Okay, like you said, this young man came out to you as far as what had been happening in his life. Well, what happened is when he was a child, he is now a grown man, and he’s never healed. And this is the first time he’s shared it.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
And I can’t imagine that in your training that you’re able for people to, you know, to tell you their really deepest, darkest stories.

Janice Williams
In other words, okay, let me phrase this differently. They might come to you for a specific issue that they think that they’re having, but then what happens with you?

Janice Williams
What will happen is that you will get to the bottom of why they have this. Because we talked about a little bit about the impact, especially that it has on daughters and their mothers, right? You know, we’re supposed to be your safe space.

Janice Williams
Yes, you know, so what’s the impact that you’ve seen on daughters as far as, you know, when they come to you and they tell you about this particular issue?

Janice Williams
Well, I think first of all, we need to recognize that the mother-daughter relationship, actually the mother relationship with a child, is usually the first relationship of our lives. You know, and I love fathers, and they play a very, very important role, but if you think about from the impact of birth, from the time that child is laid on your chest, if that’s the case, usually that very first relationship is with the mother.

So if you’re a girl and your first experiences of being loved, having love defined, having your worth verified and validated comes from a mother figure, so where there’s interruption in that relationship, where there’s missing components, where a daughter may not necessarily pick up on that affection or that validation or that approval, that whole cycle of trust and attachment and the building of self-esteem is altered from day one.

What happens is, as girls, as women, we look to our mothers initially to show us who we are and who we should be. Now, over time, you know, that is tempered with experiences and choices, etc. But if there is something missing in terms of that validation, that approval, that affection, there can be lifelong implications, and I see it in adults all the time.

All the time, who talk about that later. They may come to me talking about work issues, or they may come to me about their marital situation, and somehow, as they become more comfortable with me—and you had asked me earlier how do I bridge this—you bridge it by listening, and you listen empathetically. This is not a business that you can fake. If you don’t care, people know it; they have a radar; they can tell when you care.

Once that transference of genuine concern and care happens, people feel safe, and the floodgates open. But that mother-daughter relationship initially is where we find ourselves and our first indication of self-esteem, the first building block happens through that relationship or not.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay, I gotta take another quick commercial, and a question has come through. We’re going to see about how you answered this particular question from one of my viewers, but this will be just a quick commercial. As a matter of fact, I’m going to run the commercial for the book name that I forgot. I’m gonna run a commercial again, so we’ll be right back. Don’t go anywhere.

[Music]

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
We are back with Janice Williams, a clinical social worker, and we are talking about the impact of something that happens between mothers and daughters—the impact of when mothers really choose men, their men, over their daughters. But this question came in from Gwen Dunbar. She says, “Working in education, I noticed that many people who work as public servants—the police, teachers, social workers, and the courts—and parents tend to blame each other rather than working together. How do you think this can be resolved?”

Janice Williams
Okay, that’s an excellent question, Gwen. I believe the easiest way to resolve that is for everyone to understand the role that they play. None of us can do this without each other. When I worked in the schools, the teachers were important to me; I was important to them. The truant officers, the guidance counselors—my daughter is a guidance counselor—they’re valuable. Everyone has a role.

I think where we blame each other, where we fail to work together, is when we start thinking that one world is more important than the other. As a professional, you can only do what you do well, but you need to form linkages and coordinate services on behalf of children. So once you recognize and respect everybody’s role and realize that we are all working in the best interest of the child, and you make that the goal, and people identify how they can use their expertise for the same goal, that’s how you stop the conflict, and that’s where you focus on what’s really important, and that’s the needs of the children.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
So let me ask you one more question. How do you—okay, so you are in this field, and people come to you for help and assistance and coaching and counseling, but how can we as a general public identify if we see something like this, and what do we do?

Janice Williams
I know in the educational system you were designated reporters, exactly, but the general population?

Janice Williams
Okay, first of all, everyone is a mandated reporter. If you have knowledge that a child is being abused or neglected, you are a mandated reporter. The only difference is persons like me who have a license can lose our jobs if we don’t. But every single person has a responsibility to save a child.

It is heartbreaking, Dr. Fortman, when I hear adults tell me that there were adults who knew that they were being abused. There were family members who knew; there were teachers who knew; there were neighbors who knew, and no one did anything. Every human being, every adult, is a mandated reporter.

Now, this is not as simple as it sounds. You heard me say that there were times when I had to put on boxing gloves. I’ll keep it real. You can call and report child abuse and neglect, but there’s some things you need to know. First of all, you need to know that you do not need proof. If you suspect, and especially if a child tells you, “I’m being abused, I’m being hurt, I’m being molested,” you do not need proof.

It is the job of the child welfare protective service agency to determine if it’s true. That is not your job. Your job is to alert. Either a child told you, or you see something that concerns you. Now, you may see something that concerns you, and it may turn out to be invalid. So you have a right, if you report something, to ask that you be anonymous. That is your right.

You may think, “Well, I don’t want to get into it with my neighbors. If I called child services, and the way people are today, they come and want to shoot me, want to fight me.” You don’t have to identify yourself. All you have to do is tell them who the child is, who you suspect is the abuser, and where to find them. Then it’s their job to either validate or disclaim whatever it is, and you do not have to give your name.

Now, the other part of that is there are times when you may report, and they may not want to accept it. I ran into this a lot as a licensed professional social worker, and there are a lot of reasons why. There are a lot of reasons why they may not want to accept this. But what was important to me is knowing that I would not make a call if I did not feel that child was in danger.

You know, it is very mean to do to make a frivolous call or to try to get revenge. If you’re calling, it needs to be authentic; it needs to be truthful. So the one thing that people can do—and I don’t know how this works state to state, but in Ohio, if you report child abuse, suspected child abuse, ask for a call ID number. They’ll tell you, “Yes, okay, thank you very much.” But without a call ID number, you have no idea if they accepted that case.

They can say, “Thank you very much for telling us,” and there’s no action. When you ask for the call ID number, that enables you to call back in a few days and say, “Was this case accepted? Is someone following up?” And if you feel that they’re not and this child is still in danger, you can contact the police, or you can be, as I often was, a thorn in somebody’s side. Because if I felt a child was truly in danger, I just didn’t stop.

There were times when I did whatever I had to do, and that meant if I had to give somebody’s name to a television station, it happened. I would say things like, “May I have the correct spelling of your name? Because when this hits the paper, when this goes on TV, I want to make sure they knew I talked to you.” But that’s just me.

But we have to protect children. It’s happened so much, and people just—well, maybe somebody else will say something. I don’t want to get involved. Listen, once you know, you are involved. Once that child confides in you, you have an obligation.

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
So much, and Gwendolyn Dunbar says, “Thanks! I pray that your words become a reality.” So I would say, in closing, that wherever you are in the world, contact whoever you’re supposed to contact as far as the issues that we’re talking about here.

Yes, we only got, what, three minutes? Sandy Barney says, “In every neighborhood, a social agency is needed that people can visit anonymously that will help strengthen our complex communities, especially in our day society.” Thank you so much, Sandy, for saying that.

And thank you so much, Janice, for being a guest and for bringing this forth to us and really emphasizing that what we need to do is protect our children. Because our children, they always say, which is true, the children are our future.

Yes, and mothers and daughters, just as Janice said, and Janice number two said, number one, that mother-daughter relationship is the very first relationship we have. It affects everything; it affects our personal relationships; it affects our professional relationships.

And if there is, you know, be a designated reporter. So great conversation! Sharon Rose says, “You are my hero!”

Janice Williams
Oh, thank you so much!

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Thank you, thank you, thank you so much, Janice! I really appreciate you and bringing this to the forefront. And I’m going to have you back again, and when I write you back again—

Janice Williams
No, I didn’t— I missed that! Can you repeat that?

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
I’m going to have you back, okay? And I want you to sing!

Janice Williams
Oh no! Now you may not be as pleased with the outcome at your own risk, girl, but I’ll do it!

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay! You have a beautiful, blessed rest of your day.

Janice Williams
Thank you so much!

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
And to your listening audience, God bless you and protect the children. Thank you so much!

Janice Williams
Thank you so much!

Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
And thank all of you who were able to view this conversation. This will be on YouTube, and it’s so very important. And I’m saying this just go to Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman on YouTube page and tell people about it. Tell people so that they can get this very important information.

Thank all of you for coming. Remember, there are all kinds of relationships and all kinds of relationship matters. See you again next week!

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