Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening wherever you are in the world. It’s Dr. Janice Fortman with Relationship Matters. I hope everyone is having a beautiful blessed morning, afternoon, or evening. I am. I’m having a good day. However, some of you know I like to work out just to try and keep my body from falling apart. But the other day when I was working out, let’s talk about our relationship with our bodies. So my trainer, who has no sympathy for me, and I tell him all the time I’m a senior citizen, go easy on me, but he doesn’t. But anyway, I’m doing this exercise on this bench. I had my knee on the bench, one knee on the exercise bench, one knee and one foot on the floor, and I had a pillow up under my knee. And so he says, “Well, okay, I want you all to go from side to side holding your hands like this.” Well, what happened? I went over to my right, the pillow slipped out from under me, I fell on the floor. Now, did I get a “Oh, are you okay?” I did get an “Okay, okay, can you get up?” And I’m like, “Yeah, I could get up,” and it didn’t hurt, you know, and I was fine, and I finished my routine and everything. The next day, OMG, you talk about hurting. It was like my lower back and over to the right. So for the last, maybe this happened Friday, for the last few days, I have been existing on heating pads and ibuprofen. So I’m saying this just in case he’s listening or watching so he can take pity on me. I feel much better now, pain is gone and everything, you know, I just took it easy. But just in case he’s watching, I just want him to know even though they say no pain, no gain, you know, I just want him to maybe take it easy on me, you know, the next time I see him. And that’s it. So that’s my little relationship with my body because, you know, we talk about all kinds of relationships here because there are all kinds of relationship matters. So let’s start with what we’re talking about today. And you know, I had so much buzz about this. So let me say this, let me ask this question: Are you in a relationship with someone that you see often but you feel so disconnected with them? We have Dr. April Brown here with us. She is going to help us bring back the intimacy in our relationships. So I’m going to let me just tell you a little bit more about her. She’s a licensed mental health Christian counselor, a certified school counselor, board certified telemental health counselor, national certified counselor, a qualified clinical supervisor, a doctor. She has a doctoral degree in counseling psychology. She has a specialist degree in counseling and human systems. And she lives in Florida where I’m sure it’s really nice and warm there right now. And when I grow up, I want to be just like her. But I’m going to bring her on, Dr. April Brown.
April Brown
Oh, thank you so much. Yes, and really, I want to be like you. I saw you, yeah, the intro, and I was like, wow. And we do those in-house. I have a team, so if you’re interested in a promo, just let me know.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Yeah, famous look for me.
April Brown
Yes, yes, but I’m just saying you look wonderful, you look fabulous.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I really appreciate it. So we’re going to get right into this, but first, tell me just a little bit more. I gave them a little snippet about you, but tell us a little bit more about you.
April Brown
Okay, all right. I’m also a certified sex therapist, which, yes, which I was like, for me, getting that degree and that certification was something that was inspired by my heavenly father and my people in my life. And so when I talk about a work with couples that are feeling disconnected, I really focus on intimacy, which is more than just sex. Sex is one part, but intimacy is a whole lot. So I provide counseling service for that, but I also provide the experience. So I do couples retreats on helping people connect intimately, and I also have some books out there on Amazon on improving intimacy. So I’m just ready to get started with this.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
So tell me, why did you decide to get into this field? I know it came from on high, but you know, why do you think you decide to do this?
April Brown
Okay, honestly, this was not my first field. I was actually an accountant, and I’m very good with numbers. And I was working my butt off, but then how good is I was doing good, but there’s an inner spirit. And when I also talk about intimacy, I’m gonna talk us about that spiritual intimacy, and that said, April, hey, quit what you’re doing. You got to take some time off, raise the care, which I did, and that aspect, and he wanted me to focus on something different, something that took me out of my comfort zone. And I was like, I don’t know, because I’m really shy. I’m not sometimes a people person, but yeah, I went back to school and started this field of mental health, which has been amazing. And anxiety is what I really first started focus on, and that later on led to, you know, anxiety and relationships and all this right here. So I feel like it’s my mission to help people connect, and in helping them connect, it does help them in their mental health, and then hopefully help them for, you know, long term.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay, so first question, so we’re going to talk about really focus on focusing on couples, because that’s what I got all these questions from. So what causes lack of intimacy in a relationship? What are some of the causes?
April Brown
Some of the causes, especially now with this major pandemic and things that have been going on, people get overworked, tired, frustrated. And so when you don’t know how to deal with your stress, you sometimes take it out on the people you love, which is a sad thing to do because in reality, we’re all in business doing a variety of different things, but the best customer service we should show with our partner. So that’s one thing. The second thing is not even having enough time to connect because we’re busy, busy, busy, or where body is there, but our mind is somewhere else, you know, and something like that.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Yes, you know, what is it, my mind is on the other side of town.
April Brown
Yes, yes, when we’re not, I’m in the same spot. So that causes a lack of intimacy. Of course, sometimes age, you know, you’ve been around a partner for a long time, or it could be just something going on internally with you. For some of us who have gone through menopause and a variety of other stuff that has caused it, or eating too much junk food, sugar has some effects on body parts and all that kind of stuff. So that can cause also just maybe the lack of the desire of your partner for a variety of reasons, or sometimes, you know, third parties come in, or a third party that most people don’t think about that really does affect intimacy is alcohol.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay, okay, so now you, okay, so you’re saying intimacy, but one of the questions I got, what, you know, what’s the difference? Is sex, you know, sexual, I guess, well, some people say sexual intimacy, but some people equate sex with intimacy. What, you know, what’s the difference?
April Brown
Okay, so sexual intimacy is just one part of intimacy, guys. Intimacy is that connection you have with your partner where you and your partner are in the same time zone, they’re together, you feel connected. It’s into me you see, you can feel their presence. Of course, you can have sex without intimacy, doing, you know, one night stands and a variety of other sexual things that can happen. But a true sexual intimate experience is when you and your partner are really connecting, your bodies are moving together, you feel that connection. That connection includes, because I said it’s one part, the emotional part that you guys are there for each other emotionally, have each other’s back. There’s the communication, you guys are on the same level of communication, you’re talking, you’re connecting, you’re saying what’s good, what’s feeling this, you’re actually maybe sometimes even flirting, you know, it’s of the whole aspect. Also, for some people, they may not think about it, but even bringing yourself in as self-intimacy, and that means when you bring self-intimacy and you have an intimacy with your partner, you are actually feeling and knowing what feels good, you’re actually communicating to your partner, “Hey, this feels good, I really like this.” You are aware of your body sensation, and of course, even sometimes people bring in the inner spirit, what some people call higher power, God, or whatever, that’s also great because I believe the higher power actually created sexual intimacy. So it is that connection, it is that partner one-on-one connection with your partner, which is fabulous, and it’s one of the highest level of connection that you can have with your partner.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay, so now you said earlier when I asked you about the different causes, and you said age. So now I’m wondering about that because not now I’m talking about intimacy and not sex, right? But sometimes you see couples that, you know, they could be in their 80s and you can see that, you know, the intimacy between them. So when you say age, what are you talking about actually?
April Brown
Okay, it can be sexual, but it could also be non-sexual. In the sense of the sexual part, it could be a problem of them trying to connect, but they get frustrated because maybe someone cannot perform as well as they used to, a variety of different things, or something doesn’t work out, that’s one part. But when we also talk about intimacy, I’m going to go away from sexual intimacy in the sense of activities or different things. Sometimes people disconnect because their activities change, or what I see a lot because I’m in here in sunny Florida, is that people come down here to retire a lot of times, and sometimes you may have one partner that wants to do 50 million things, you know, I want to go hiking, I want to go boating, I want to golf, I want to go to the country club, while the other partner doesn’t want to do a damn thing. Like, I don’t want to see any more people, I’ve been working all this time, I don’t want to do nothing, you know, and so there becomes a disconnect of, you know, of kind of, you know, like back when they were much younger, but anyway, of them not doing the same activities, which is okay. I’m not saying you have to do every activity together because you don’t, but you do have to find some things that you connect with. So that’s one part of how the intimacy can disconnect somewhat. Another part is, of course, just basic love languages changes over time.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
You know, let’s talk about love languages.
April Brown
Yes.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
So I, well, I read a book a long time ago about the love languages, and so tell us about the different love languages and how that, I guess, the difference in the love languages can affect intimacy.
April Brown
Okay, so the love language is the five love language by Dr. Gary Chapman, and the five love languages are, first is touch. Some people feel love when they’re touched, and that doesn’t necessarily mean sexual touching, could just be a hug. Others is words, how you speak, complimenting your partner. A third could be charitable acts, which is the washing dishes, helping with the car, doing clothes, running errands. A fourth could be gifts, and then the fifth is quality time. So of course, your new partner does not have to have the same love language, and if you’re listening to me, you’re like, well, I don’t even know what my love language is, there’s plenty of online free tests you can take. What is important is that you understand your partner’s love language. That is what’s important because many times we give what we think we want versus giving what our partner wants and needs. And so when it comes to love language and how it affects intimacy is, let’s say your love language is gifts, and you just continue to give your partner a gift, but you’re running around doing 50 million things, and you maybe do not spend enough time with your partner, and your partner’s love language is quality time. And then at the end of the day, you’re trying to just quickly spend some time, maybe kiss and hug, maybe even try to have sex, but the time has not been put there, and your partner’s kind of like standoffish. That’s why. So it’s really important to understand your partner’s love language, and because that can definitely affect intimacy in that manner.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay, all right. So if you have two different kinds of love languages, then I would imagine you really, like you say, you need to know what your partner’s love language is, right? But okay, but now let’s say your love language is different from your partner’s, and let’s say, but your partner doesn’t feel comfortable, you know what I’m saying?
April Brown
Okay.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Let me give an example. Let’s say the woman’s love, which is usually the woman’s love language might be gifts, you know, she loves gifts. The man’s love language might be, well, I’m gonna help you around the house, you know what I mean? Because that’s what he maybe he knows or what he’s seeing or what he feels, you know, and maybe he doesn’t feel like he can get her gifts that she loves or something like that. So when it’s two different ones, and let’s say, and I just use that, but two different ones, but neither feels comfortable, you know what I’m saying? You know, what do you do?
April Brown
One good thing is you gotta talk about it. That’s really, really important. And let’s say you feel like I can’t even talk about it in some aspect, have them take one of those free online tests, let it laid out. I mean, that’s a good table talk conversation to talk about. This is how I feel love. And when you’re having a conversation with your partner about something, let’s say that you may not like, instead of saying, you know, I don’t want you to give me this, this, this, that, let’s not do it that way. Let’s learn how to sandwich things. And what you mean sandwiches, put some bread there. If you have a nickname, I don’t know, babe, you know, you’re sitting beside him, babe, if he has some hair, you curl his hair or, you know, touch his leg or whatever. I said, honey, I really, really like when you say such and such to me, or when you touch this, that just really just gets me so excited. They’re gonna remember those kind of things when you say it that way.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Yes, you know, one thing you didn’t mention when you talked about the causes of lack of intimacy are like medical conditions.
April Brown
Right, right, right. So medical conditions can really impact. That’s why it’s really good, number one, to have self-intimacy, to know your body. For sometimes for women, a certain age or any kind of age, we can sometimes have hormones that impact how our body feels, how our body gets aroused, how we’re able to lubricate and not lubricate. So it’s really good to understand up and not to be ashamed of it. I know when I went through menopause, my body started to change. And so yeah, I had to get on a hormone appeal, fine. For men, sometimes medical issues can be whether it’s sugar, diabetes, other things that can really, and you also have to be careful, ladies and gentlemen, I’m a mental health counselor, so of course I see a lot of people with sometimes mental health issues. And sometimes when you’re taking these mental health medications and other medications, they sometimes can have an impact on your sex life. You have to really like look and look at the, see if it’s impacting because sometimes a lot of stimulants do and talk to your doctor about it in the sense of that. But if it is a medical condition, there’s a lot of different avenues of learning how to work within that or take another medication. Or also sometimes we get things in our mind and we get stuck and as we up.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Yeah, go ahead, I’m sorry.
April Brown
Yeah, no, no. As we get older or sometimes just different things happen, we have, and I’m gonna talk on the man’s side, we have what we call performance anxiety. Like, oh my gosh, it’s not gonna work. Oh my gosh, this is not gonna feel right. Oh my gosh, this and that. Or we become like little coaches to ourselves in bed. Yeah, I work with people on teaching them how to be mindful, to be truly, truly present because that’s really the only way you can truly get aroused.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
I was going to say that a lot of it might have something to do with what’s up here.
April Brown
Yes.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
You know, whatever is in the mind as far as intimacy is concerned, you know, it might not be a physical thing, it can be a mental thing or even a psychological thing.
April Brown
Yes, yes, because the mind and the heart and your private parts are connected.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Right, so do you see a difference in intimacy as far as married couples and unmarried couples are concerned? Is there, do you see a difference in that?
April Brown
Yes, and let me say happy married couples versus unhappy married couples. There’s a difference in that right there because when people are happily married, they feel secure, you know, and they feel they can be vulnerable to one another. So that intimacy, as I talked earlier about being in the same spot, is really, really important. And that’s also the difference between a couple that’s not married or a couple that maybe just got started because sometimes that trust isn’t there, that foundation, you know, and you’re like, oh my gosh, I don’t know if they’re gonna leave or what if I say this, what if I do this, you know what I’m saying? There’s all that judgment. When a couple is not doing well, it is usually, you can usually see it in the bedroom in a variety of different aspects, like whether they’re not having sex or they’re having sex but they’re not really connecting or they’re faking orgasms or…
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Women, women.
April Brown
Yes.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
I don’t know about, but sometimes they don’t get aroused.
April Brown
Okay, yeah, okay.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
But they can’t afford.
April Brown
Yeah, or porn, a lot of porn happens, so yeah.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay, all right, okay. Well, I know women can fake orgasms, but men can’t see that.
April Brown
They can’t because…
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Right, right, right, right.
April Brown
They just try not to have sex, so yes.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Yeah, so they just like, no, I’m not, I’m too tired, I’m this, I’m that. So is there a difference in what men think intimacy is and what women think? And I’m not talking about sex, I’m talking about intimacy because to me, it’s two different, and I know to you, it’s two different things.
April Brown
Right, right.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
So, you know, what do men think about it in your practices and stuff? What do you hear, what do you see as far as men are concerned and then women are concerned?
April Brown
So sometimes I hear from men that, you know, I think I’m doing everything. I said nice things to her, I bought her flowers, you know, I bought dinner, I just don’t understand what’s going on. But there’s a part that women, we are emotional creatures, and if we don’t sometimes feel, not all women, but most of us, if we don’t feel emotionally connected, you know, it’s just not there for us. And explaining that to a guy, and I explained to guys and said, you know how you see those tits and butts are sexy? Your women scenes emotions as sexy. And they’re like, what do you mean emotions? And I’m saying, yeah, they want to know how you’re actually feeling, what’s going on in your life. It’s not just about, you know, I brought up flowers, you know, you look nice today, and let’s go to the bedroom.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
[Laughter] Yes, yeah, that’s, yeah, I know you’re laughing at some sort, I mean, have you seen some or heard some of this before?
April Brown
Sure, yeah, you know, women talk, I don’t know men talk, but women talk, you know, and yeah, like you say, we are emotional creatures. And so that’s why I asked that question because a lot of women will say, you know, well, I know one couple that I know, he works and he couldn’t understand why his wife wanted a divorce because he worked all these hours, you know, he bought her this big beautiful home, you know, and, you know, gave her all of, you know, these things, so to speak, but he was never there. And so he couldn’t understand why, why, you know, I’ve given her everything, but she didn’t want any of that. And so being friends with both of them, you know, and I said, well, you know, you didn’t give her what she wanted.
April Brown
Right, and he may say, I was there, I was physically there.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Right, he was physically there.
April Brown
Right, but that part of being mindfulness of being their body, mind, spirit, and soul, that’s where that where is missing.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Right, right, right. So Dr. April, I gotta take a few commercials and then we’re gonna be right back because got a whole bunch of questions, more questions.
April Brown
Oh, I’m so excited.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay, so we shall be right back.
[Commercial Break]
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Hi, we are back with Dr. April Brown. So now some more questions came in while I was gone, while we were gone. So can a marriage survive without intimacy?
April Brown
As I said earlier, intimacy requires a variety of different things, and it’s more than just sex. So I’m going to say yes, a marriage can survive without sexual intimacy in the traditional format of sex. Can a marriage survive without intimacy where there’s no communication, there’s no emotional connection, there’s no physical hugs or doing activities together? It’s not a marriage, it’s a roommate or even less than a roommate. So I would say no for intimacy, but if you’re just talking about traditional sexual intimacy, yes.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay, right. So that’s when you have to separate sex and intimacy.
April Brown
Right, right, right.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay, all right. Okay, so came in here, it says men and women have different life experiences growing up, which may affect communication between them. One may be touchy-feely and the other may not. What do you tell them?
April Brown
What do I tell them? So it’s really important to find the time to communicate because communication and communication is a form of intimacy. It’s one of the top forms of intimacy. So finding time to communicate and when you communicate on a regular basis, it’s learning how to say I such and such, but also it’s really important to learn your partner’s language. So let’s say you’re married to, I think that I know the best is an accountant, okay? And maybe an accountant, your accountant is someone who’s very emotional and stuff. If you explain things in the sense of asset and debits and credits, you know, this is in the red, you know, we’ve been doing so much, but this right here is in the red, it’s, you know, we’re needing to fill this up. They may understand it better than just saying, oh my gosh, I’m so sad and crying and all that. Learning how to speak your partner’s language is critical. Number two is being able to make sure you’re talking to your partner when you’re not flooded. I don’t know if you know what the terminology flooded means. Flooded means when you’re talking with someone and you start to get so upset, the emotion comes up to your head and either just flies out of your mouth or you just shut down and you don’t say anything. You have to learn when you start to get upset, how it feels in your body, how that heart race, because when you start to get upset, it’s really, really important if you’re in a loving relationship is learning how to take time out to calm yourself down because it’s your responsibility to calm yourself down, not your partner’s. I mean, two people come together and they’re calm, they’re able to see things. And the third suggestion that I have is if your partner is, how can I put it, more emotional and you’re trying to understand what’s going on, you know, sometimes it’s good to use a little touch. It’s also good to look the person in the eye. It’s also good if sometimes if you can’t figure out what to even say, you know, I’m trying to understand it all, let me take some notes so I can, because some people have to, a visual, they kind of need to write things down to hear what’s going on.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay, okay. So do you bring a spiritual aspect into connecting with intimacy? Is there a spiritual aspect to this?
April Brown
Yes, yes, yes. So with intimacy, and I use this general world, but there is the self-intimacy, there’s that spiritual intimacy.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay, let’s cause I’ll forget. So self-intimacy, what is that?
April Brown
Self-intimacy is being connected with your body and you knowing your purpose, knowing why you’re on this earth. Of course, for some of us, we have to go higher and include that spiritual intimacy, which I see as an inner spirit. I call it God, other people may call it other things, but that helps directs you, that helps gives you insight. That inner spirit, it’s not going to put you down, it’s not going to say negative things to you, no, it’s going to uplift you and help guide you. And when you’re able to hear that and have also the self-intimacy, that self-intimacy means I know what feels good, I know what doesn’t feel good. I also don’t say anything negative to myself at all, you know, and I’m good to my body, you know, and like you were saying earlier about working out, I work out, I take care of my body. It’s the same way as you would take care of your partner, your kids, and all that other aspects. So that is really important. Do I bring spiritual intimacy in when I’m working with a couple? If a couple puts it, I have tons of paperwork you have to do, if they put that that’s important to them, I will bring it in. If it’s not something that is important to you or you have no connection, that’s fine, I won’t bring it in, but we’re all connected somehow spiritually.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Very, so yes. So when you work with couples, I saw something, it said something about the Gottman Method. What is that?
April Brown
So Gottman, there’s a couple that I’ve been doing relationships since I think the early 60s. So they have over 2 million in the sense of research of how couples connect and disconnect, and they provide a wonderful assessment that clinicians can utilize. So if you have a Gottman certified therapist, there’s probably, I don’t know, maybe 10,000 certified therapists in the world, there’s a lot of us, that utilizes their assessment and the variety of different ways that we work because we look at relationships as communication, emotional, of course, there’s passion, there’s also friendship base, you know, they look at it as a house basically, and they will, we talk about how each part of the house works and how we get a couple to be strong in their house. The assessment that the Gottman provide and that counselors is a very excellent tool. Sometimes when we give it to people, you may see that, wow, we’re not as compatible, and that’s okay. And that’s okay. When you go for couples counseling, marriage counseling, whatever, our purpose is to bring insight. You are the expert, you in the relationship, we bring insight. When you see that insight, you have a choice to make on whether you want to stay in something, whether you want to work toward change, you know, whether you want to leave something. Of course, you cannot change another person, you can only work on you.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Right, so when they come into your, now you have something like a retreat that I read about, is this the same when you talk about the counseling, is that the same thing or is that two different things?
April Brown
Oh, it’s part of the same thing, but I do retreats. So retreats are taking the counseling that I do, but putting in it in a very intense, like we do 16 hours of therapy plus having fun, whether we do zip lining, where I’m going to Costa Rica or waterfalls in Jamaica.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Yes, yes.
April Brown
Yes, so it, and it’s not only just me, it’s me and another therapist.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay.
April Brown
Yeah, yeah, so when we do a retreat, it’s always another therapist or two, but we do creative things because intimacy, as I talked before about communication and all this, there’s a thing called activity intimacy, which is doing activities together, doing service together. You know, when you put a couple and you have them out in the nature and they’re working together, do you know what kind of bond that is?
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
That’s, I don’t know because I’m not out in the wilderness, I don’t like bugs and beans and insects.
April Brown
Yes, yes, yes, but you understand, I saw your beautiful family.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Yes, yes.
April Brown
Yeah, yeah, you guys do a lot of wonderful activities, but yes.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Yeah, yeah, so that’s what our, I call it vacation counseling, and I call it vacation because besides the intense counseling that you will get, we’re going to also make sure you have a vacation. So for all those guys out there saying, I don’t want to go to counseling and have to talk about my problems, okay, we’re going to do it differently. You will talk, we will play. I mean, I sometimes get, I’ve gotten out the Legos and a guy’s been like, oh my gosh, I haven’t played Legos in so long, and the next thing you know, he’s crying about his childhood or whatever, he makes you a breakthrough, but we’re going to have that, you know, fun activity where we play basketball or whatever. Yeah, we’re going to work within what you bring.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay, so that’s why you call it vacation counseling.
April Brown
Yes.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay, you know, that sounds actually really great, and it’s probably a good way to really, you know, get men to open up.
April Brown
Yes, exactly.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Women, you know, we don’t have a problem, everybody, you know, we, no, we don’t have a problem.
April Brown
Right, right.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
But I know men a lot of times have difficulty in expressing real intimate feelings.
April Brown
Right.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
You know, so that sounds great. So a question came in here, it says, what has been your most difficult situation you’ve had to help with a couple?
April Brown
Well, one of my most difficult situations, and I see it sometime, and I just talked a little bit about it here in Florida, it’s such a wonderful environment, but there’s sometimes people drink, and they drink a little too much. And I know drinking is a very touchy subject, and let me put it this way, people, if you’re frustrated or happy or whatever the case may be, and you continue to go to the bottle, you know, whether you’re happy all the time, mad all the time, sad, you take a drink, and you continue to do that all the time, okay, what happens is that becomes like a third party, that becomes like an affair, because you’re going to that instead of your partner. But you’re like, wait a minute, April, wait a minute, April, in the beginning, my partner and I drank, oh yeah, yeah, it was a good threesome in the beginning, yeah, but at some point, someone may have stopped or became where the alcohol really got into one of you, and you just really started not to like the other person, you know what I’m saying? And then this other part of you comes out that can be aggressive sometimes or hurtful, and the one thing you just don’t want to do is continue that pattern, because as we all know, that can be passed on for generations in the sense of changing genetics. So getting people to see how alcohol and drugs can become a third party in a relationship as an affair, it’s probably been some of the most challenging, but when I talk about it that way, sometimes people can understand it. And if you have a partner who is struggling with an addiction, and let’s say you want to work with them, then we learn how to, as a couple, address this third party together, because an addiction doesn’t just go away, it will come knocking in the middle of the night, you know, like an affair, like, and you have to learn what kind of coping skills I can do to not open that door anymore.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
So do you find sometimes with the people that you, the couples that you work with, that pornography is that third party?
April Brown
Yes, yes, yes.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Does that, and how does that affect relationships?
April Brown
Well, it affects relationships in the sense of the person who’s using the pornography, when they’re going for sex or trying to go for intimacy, it’s not really intimate, they just go through it so fast because pornography is fast. When you’re watching porn, it’s like, but it also changes the brain in here, then you expect all this different stuff, that’s one aspect. The second aspect, let’s say the person has stopped, but they’ve been caught a few times, a variety of times, this other party, let’s say the victim, gets in their head about what their partner was looking at, and they start to feel not good enough, and it becomes a whole big thing. With porn addiction or even affair, the person who is not doing it may feel like it’s their fault, but it’s not. Sometimes people have an affair because they’re actually looking for someone, but sometimes people have an affair because they’re looking for themselves.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Really?
April Brown
Exactly.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Yes, they’re looking for themselves. Go a little deeper into that.
April Brown
Okay, what that means is, godly, they’ve been, my life has been so boring, I’ve been doing the same old thing, I think this, this, this, that, so depressed, I want a little bit of excitement, and they, a woman, a drink, porn, whatever the case may be, instead of dealing with themselves, they’re not really looking to take on this extra thing, but they’re looking for themselves, they’ve lost themselves, they don’t even know, you know, I’ve known women who like, all I’ve been doing is wiping baby’s butt, I don’t even know myself anymore. So they go out and try to find themselves, so to speak, in whatever a third party.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Now, so what about couples that watch porn together?
April Brown
Okay.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Does that help with intimacy?
April Brown
For some people, it does. Because in intimacy, kind of, I know you know about children, it’s also how we learn, how we, so there’s some of us who are visual learners, you know, so they see things and they get so excited, and they both get excited, and they’re ready to go. So for some people, for porn, that’s good. If you are watching porn, it is good that your partner knows about it.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay, so now we’re, to me, we’re talking about porn and sex, but porn and intimacy, isn’t that two different things?
April Brown
For some people, you know, see, I do a lot of different relationships. For some people, they can truly be connected intimately in using porn. Some people can truly feel intimately connected when they have, I don’t know, another person or two in the bed, because they are, how can I put it, each couple has an underlining set of rules or guidelines that help them, but this is also based on a people’s value system. And if you’re just doing this to please someone else, but you don’t really feel connected in this, then it’s not going to work. Sometimes it backfires.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
I’m thinking about movies that I’ve seen.
April Brown
Right, right.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Where the two people decided they were either going to watch porn together or they were going to have a third party, you know, and then one of the parties, you know, like, wait a minute, you seem like you’re enjoying this over here a little bit too much. And so what we started out to do, that’s not working anymore. So that can really backfire.
April Brown
So backfire.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
So, you know, I think communication is everything.
April Brown
Right.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
And knowing yourself and knowing your value system, because it backfires when you settle or you’re like, I’m just going to do this because that’s what my partner, but really, I’m totally against this. You do not ever want to change your own value system.
April Brown
Yeah.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Because that’s how you start to lose yourself.
April Brown
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Wow, this is really, really deep. I’m just looking to see, like, you know, I’m going to tell you what’s amazing to me, and I think we mentioned this a little bit before we came on, usually in my comments, there are a whole lot of questions in the whole, we talked about this a little earlier, I mean, before you came on.
April Brown
Yes.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
So what they’re doing, you know, they’re sending me stuff, but not coming up, which I can understand.
April Brown
Yes.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
You know, because if you’re asking the question, you know, depending if it’s a male, a man, or a woman, and then the other partner, well, why did you ask that question? Is, you know, is that, are we not intimate, or, I mean, don’t we have intimacy in our relationship, or are you interested in porn, is that what, you know, so it’s kind of like tickling me a little bit, you know, but I can understand that. So one last question that I have, when you have your couple’s retreats, so do you start off with them, the couple separately, you know, to, I guess, for the assessments and conversations to get them to, I guess, share, so to speak, so that, you know, it’s where they have a feeling of freedom, and then you bring them together, or you start out together, you know, with them together, how does that work?
April Brown
Okay, in my couple’s retreat and in my sessions, you both get an individual paperwork that goes over the relationship and also goes over a deep sexual history. And then I meet with you guys together to understand the chemistry, to understand what I’m dealing with. Then I send you an assessment, and I meet with each person separately to understand the back story, and then I bring you guys back together to review over the assessment and to go from there. I would like to give, since we’re talking about intimacy and people out there wanting to know how can I talk about this with my partner, here is one quick little way to talk about it. Of course, use this conversation outside of the bedroom. It’s really important that it’s outside the bedroom, and when you guys have time to talk about it, talk about it like a meal. You’re like, what do you mean like a meal? Okay, right. So when you look at intimacy, and we’re gonna mostly talking about the whole sexual intimacy, talk about, you know, what is the ambiance that I really like? What’s the setting, the lighting, the flowers, the smells? What is the next part, the appetizer, your foreplay? What do you really like? What turns you on? Then talk about the meal, which is the actual sexual part, and then finally the dessert, which means what do you like after that whole big connection? Some people like to, of course, take a shower, some people like to snuggle, sleep, go to the bed, or some people like to eat. That’s an easy way to sit there and talk about it as a meal.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Never thought about that.
April Brown
Yes.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Never, never thought about that. Yeah, that is a good way. So now, we only have a few minutes, but you did mention your books. So tell us briefly about your books.
April Brown
Okay, yes, my books are called Improving Intimacy. It’s out there on Amazon. There’s five books. The first one is about self-spirit and spouse. The second one is about that whole, the third is about greater expression of intimacy, all the different things between planning a garden, doing dishes together, taking a shower. The fourth one is about just sex. The fifth one that just came out is about intimacy in the workforce, and I’m not talking about having sex at your job, not talking about that. I am talking about having two connections with your job, with your employer, with your coworker, and there’s a couple more books coming out.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Okay, that’s wonderful. We did get a comment from Sandy Bernie Innis. I don’t know him like that. I don’t know what that means.
April Brown
Okay, Sandy, yes, and all these things, you need to do it at your pace, what you feel comfortable with.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
And how can, if people want to get in contact with you, how can they get in contact with you?
April Brown
Yes, well, as you see it strolling there, draprilbrown.com is the best way to get in contact with me. My phone number is on the website, and you can email me at info@draprilbrown.com. I would love to talk with anyone, and thank you so much for having me on the show.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
And I thank you, and I know that my audience has gotten a lot of value out of this, even you all out there that didn’t want to put the comments in, only Sandy was brave enough to do that, but I appreciate all the questions, and thank you so much. It really has been eye-opening.
April Brown
Oh, awesome. Thank you, Dr. Janice, I appreciate it.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
And you’re in Florida, and you know, I don’t want to hear it.
April Brown
Yes, and you’re welcome to come down and visit.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
As soon as we can get past the snow, I would love to.
April Brown
Yes.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
So you have a beautiful blessed rest of your morning, afternoon, well, you’re in Florida, so your evening.
April Brown
Yes.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
All right, thank you.
April Brown
All right, bye-bye.
Dr. Janice Hooker Fortman
Well, this has been really eye-opening and really informational, and I know that you got a lot out of it. And for those out there, if you are having difficulties in your relationship as far as intimacy is concerned or sex is concerned, reach out to Dr. April Brown, www.draprilbrown.com. So we’ll see all of you again next Thursday on Relationship Matters. Remember, there are all kinds of relationships, and there are all kinds of relationship matters. So I will see you again next Thursday, 7 p.m. Central Standard Time. Bye-bye.